CT Construction Digest Friday September 8, 2023
Mix-use development goal of housing plan in Naugatuck
ANDREAS YILMA
NAUGATUCK – The Board of Mayor and Burgesses has approved a new 2023-28 affordable housing plan.
The five-year plan’s goals include promoting mixed-use redevelopment of the central business district; offering tax incentives to deed-restricted units at mobile home parks; working collaboratively with nonprofits and other organizations to boost affordable housing projects; and reducing or modifying permit fees and utility connection charges in return for deed restrictions to create durable, affordable housing.
The plan was prepared by the Planning Commission, Town Planner Lori Rotella and Naugatuck Valley Council of Governments Director of Community Planning Savannah-Nicole Villalba.
Rotella said the borough wants to “shorten up our approval process on our applications. We’re looking into removing the special-permit process in the New Haven Road and Rubber Avenue Design District for existing structures, not for new construction.”
Rotella said officials are collaborating on the plan with Naugatuck Housing Authority.
The state has given each municipality a target of at least 10% for affordable housing stock.
“We have 8.4% of what the state classifies as affordable housing,” Mayor N. Warren “Pete” Hess said. “Less than 10% creates some potential legal issues.”
The affordable housing plan will have to be updated every five years. For the next cycle, the borough will have to show how it will improve the accessibility of affordable units for individuals with intellectual or other developmental disabilities, which is not in the current plan.
The state mandated that every municipality have an affordable housing plan by 2022, but the borough requested and received an extension. The new deadline is Oct. 1.
“So by law, we have to approve this or approve a plan to remain qualified for state grants,” Hess said.
$50M apartment development taking shape near New Haven’s Science Park
Developers and city officials this week marked the progress of The Residences at Canal Place, a new $50 million, mixed-income project that will bring 176 apartments to New Haven’s Science Park area.
The five-story building will feature studio, one-, and two-bedroom apartments, with one-third, or 58 units, deemed affordable.
The project, at 222 Canal St., borders the Dixwell and
Newhallville neighborhoods, and is a prime location across from the Farmington
Canal Trail, said developer Yves-Georges A. Joseph II, founder and principal of
RJ Development and Advisors along with Jason S. Rudnick.
The project is a public-private partnership between the development team and
New Haven, with $3 million in American Rescue Plan Act funds from the city, and
work by the Local Initiatives Support Corp., a nonprofit community development
financial institution.
New Haven Mayor Justin Elicker said the project has been in the works for a long time and will offer much-needed city housing. He touted this as one of countless growth and development initiatives around New Haven.
The building sits on a long-vacant 1.7-acre parcel known as the Science Park lot and is bordered by Ashmun, Canal, and Henry streets.
The $50 million project is the latest piece of a larger effort to redevelop that area of New Haven, which was once home to factories such as Winchester Arms and Olin Corp.
Joseph said the project will add to RJ Development’s
portfolio that includes apartments at College & Crown, the Cambria Hotel in
the “Route 34 West” redevelopment area, the mixed-use ConnCAT Place on Dixwell,
as well as The Beam project in New London.
The first floor of Canal Place is nearly complete, and the entire project is
expected to be complete within 18 months.
AConnecticut manufacturer is hoping to help municipalities and contractors reach their clean energy goals through an innovative approach to making construction materials.
Urban Mining CT has developed a concrete additive made of recycled glass.
The company — based out of its Beacon Falls waste-gloss processing facility — breaks down, cleans and then transforms glass into a product called Pozzotive, which can be added to concrete mix in place of other compounds like cement, which is more costly, both environmentally and economically.
The added benefit of Urban Mining’s business model is that it recycles glass — an increasing challenge for municipal recycling programs nationwide due to increasing transportation and processing costs, contamination issues and limited end markets, according to Waste Dive, an industry trade publication.
Urban Mining obtains its recycled glass from material recovery facilities across the state.
While relatively new to the market, the company’s product is gaining traction. Pozzotive recently won a “Innovative Product Award” from the National Ready Mixed Concrete Association, and has been used in some high-profile construction projects, including JPMorgan Chase’s new global headquarters in New York City, and ESPN’s Digital Center 2 in Bristol.
Torrington-based construction and general contracting firm O&G Industries has used Pozzotive in several of its Connecticut projects, too.
O&G also partnered with Pozzotive inventor Louis Grasso to build Urban Mining CT’s Beacon Falls manufacturing facility.
“Cement production is the second-largest producer of greenhouse gasses in the world, it’s an extremely energy-intensive process,” said T.J. Oneglia, vice president of construction materials at O&G Industries. “So, by reducing the amount of cement that goes into concrete, we can lower the carbon footprint of concrete.”
The product and company
Grasso, 60, and his uncle and business partner Patrick Grasso, 70, invented Pozzotive in 2001. They received their first patent for the product in 2009.
Pozzotive is a ground-glass type of pozzolan, a term for the family of compounds added to concrete for various purposes. Louis Grasso said Pozzotive creates stronger, longer-lasting concrete while reducing carbon dioxide emissions generated in the production of cement — the gray powder that goes into concrete — on an almost ton-for-ton basis.
Cement essentially acts as the glue to make concrete; but Pozzotive can replace up to 50% of the concrete mix at a lower environmental cost, Grasso said.
Using Pozzotive to replace cement in concrete is five times more impactful in reducing global CO2 emissions than repurposing the glass back into bottles or fiberglass, Grasso said.
“By directly replacing the cement in a yard of concrete with something that has only a 5% carbon footprint of the cement it’s replacing, creates a tremendous benefit,” Grasso said.
Grasso said the magic in making Pozzotive is the cleaning process. Urban Mining uses patented technology that separates glass from non-glass materials, and then cleans it to beyond the industry standard using a “low-embodied carbon process.”
Finally, it mills the glass into a fine powder, getting it to 99.7% purity, Grasso said.
Urban Mining CT is owned by New York-based holding company Urban Mining Industries and members of the Oneglia family, who are the founders of O&G Industries. They formed a partnership to build the multimillion-dollar Beacon Falls facility, which became operational in 2021.
Since then, Urban Mining CT has grown to 10 full-time employees.
“As a concrete producer we end up using a lot of pozzolans, … and most of the pozzolans we’ve used in the past were derived from fly ash from coal-burning power plants,” T.J. Oneglia said. “Over time, as the coal-burning power plants started to shut down, the availability of fly ash became scarcer and scarcer.”
Fly ash is still available to concrete producers, but it carries a premium cost. That led O&G Industries to search for an alternative and eventually connect with Grasso to start their business venture.
Company officials declined to disclose annual revenues, but said they’ve sold 10,500 tons of Pozzotive in 2023 through July, and anticipate sales to exceed 18,000 tons for the year. That equates to more than 72 million glass bottles recycled.
The company has a 28,000-ton sales target for 2024.
T.J. Oneglia, 49, said the product is cost-neutral for contractors, meaning it doesn’t cost more to use Pozzotive than another pozzolan.
Local impact
Urban Mining has another revenue stream through supply agreements with material recovery facilities, which separate paper, plastic and glass after they are recycled by residents and businesses.
Recovery facilities pay Urban Mining to take their sorted glass, which the company then cleans and turns into Pozzotive. Urban Mining sells Pozzotive directly to concrete companies and developers for use in their projects in Connecticut, Massachusetts, New York and even as far as Washington, D.C.
Grasso said recovery facility glass in the Northeast usually doesn’t end up being recycled the way people might think. In fact, glass from municipal recycling facilities is often used as landfill cover.
By turning glass into a concrete additive, tons of glass bottles, jars and other recyclable materials avoid regional landfills annually.
Recovery facilities that collect recycling in Berlin, Darien, New Canaan, Norwalk, Stamford, Willimantic and other cities and towns across Connecticut contract with Urban Mining for glass processing, and Oneglia said the company hopes to continue to grow both in the state and region.
Grasso said Urban Mining has considered replicating its manufacturing facility and recycling business model in the Boston metropolitan area, New York City and Washington, D.C.
“We’re hoping to get a plant in both D.C., and Boston sometime in the future,” Oneglia said.
In addition to new markets, Grasso said Urban Mining is currently exploring other uses for Pozzotive. The company has already done some field tests using it in paints and coatings.
“It solves the problem of what to do with municipal recovery facility glass, otherwise this glass would end up in landfills — never biodegrading and taking up valuable space,” Grasso said.
Former Stratford Dictaphone site off Broadbridge Ave. could become 234-unit housing complex
Richard Chumney
STRATFORD — The owners of the old Dictaphone Corporation property off Broadbridge Avenue want to transform the vacant office park into a 234-unit housing complex, the latest in a flurry of newly proposed local apartment projects.
The two companies that jointly own the 10-acre site are seeking the town’s permission to convert the existing office building into apartments and construct a pair of new buildings, according to an application recently filed with the town.
“The redevelopment plan is the adaptive reuse of the property into three buildings, all of which will be residential,” Barry Knott, an attorney representing the developers, wrote in the application.
The project is a part of a larger push by developers to convert unused office space into more profitable residential rentals, a trend that has accelerated in recent years amid a nationwide housing shortage and in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic, which shuttered scores of offices.
The application also comes on the heels of a proposal by a
separate developer to expand
an already-approved apartment building on Lordship Avenue to 127-units
and about nine months after the town council approved plans to build a 154-unit
housing complex at the former Center School property.
Under the proposal for 3191 Broadbridge Avenue, the existing
150,000-square-foot office building, a nearly 70-year-old structure that has
sat empty for much of the last eight years, would be remodeled into a 101-unit
apartment building.
The developers also plan to construct a four-story, 69-unit apartment building as well as a four-story, 64-unit building exclusively for seniors who are at least 55-years-old. According to the application, 17 of the non-senior units would be designated as affordable while the rest would be rented at market rate.
In total, the complex would feature 22 studio apartments, 134 1-bedroom units and 76 2-bedroom units. The complex would also include swimming pools next to the new apartment buildings and each of three structures would include amenity space for facilities such as a gym.
Architectural plans show the two new buildings, designed by Beinfield Architecture, would have a parking garage on the lower level. The entire complex, which sits near a bus stop, would include more than 300 parking spaces.
The Architectural Review Board, a five-member advisory body tasked with ensuring development projects adhere to the town’s design guidelines, is scheduled to discuss the project during its upcoming meeting at 6:30 p.m. on Thursday, Sept. 16.
As a part of the project, the developers also plan to ask the Zoning Commission to approve a text amendment that would permit them to build the complex. It is not yet clear when the commission will review the application.
Potential Shore Line East expansion calls for new stations across the region
Kimberly Drelich
Despite looming service cuts for Shore Line East this fall and fewer trains running due to construction, a newly released study says there is demand for expanding the commuter rail service in the future.
But questions remain over how the improvements that would cost as much as $1 billion would be funded, along with permitting and planning, if they were to move forward.
The study says expanding commuter rail service ― which the state currently operates between New Haven to New London ― to Westerly, R.I., and to Norwich would allow people to better access jobs and recreation. It adds that while the expansion could be possible to implement in the long term, it would require more planning, permitting and costly infrastructure upgrades.
Preliminary cost estimates show the capital costs for the Shore Line East extension to Westerly, R.I., could be $243 million, while the extension to Norwich could cost $635.7 million, though costs could fluctuate by more than 30%.
While the state has not decided whether to move forward, the potential expansion would call for proposed new train stations in Groton, an alternative to the existing station in Mystic, and Stonington Borough along the Northeast Corridor.
Three new stations heading north would be located at Connecticut College/U.S. Coast Guard Academy in New London, near the Mohegan Sun in Montville and in Norwich.
Though any sites would require further study, the state has identified potential locations for the proposed stations: 840 Poquonnock Road in Groton, where a car wash is located; a parcel at 16-20 Stonington Road in Mystic that contains vacant land and a closed antique shop, a half-mile southeast of the existing Mystic station; the Stonington Community Center thrift shop at 45 Cutler St. in Stonington Borough; a site off of Farnsworth Street in New London; 236 Fort Shantok Road in Montville; and North Thames Street, between West Main Street and West Side Boulevard, in Norwich.
Even as the state contemplates the future of rail and transit, service reductions for the Shore Line East commuter rail are expected this fall due to cuts in funding.
Appetite for increased rail and transit
The final draft of the Eastern Connecticut Corridor Rail and Transit Feasibility Study found “an appetite for increased rail and transit service,” particularly “increased frequency and expanded hours of service to regional destinations.” It also points out that the region is adding manufacturing and defense industry jobs, and that the population is growing and aging, which will mean a need for increased and more accessible bus service.
The state legislature had tasked the state Department of Transportation with studying the feasibility of expanding commuter rail from New London to Norwich and to Westerly as well as constructing a train station in Groton and in Stonington Borough and improving links between existing transportation systems.
The DOT specifically studied expanding Shore Line East from New London to Westerly along the Northeast Corridor; adding passenger rail service between New London and Norwich on Genesee and Wyoming’s western Palmer Line or eastern Norwich Branch; and adding service on a rail spur in Groton off the Northeast Corridor.
The DOT found that adding commuter rail from New London to Westerly, and to Norwich along the Palmer Line would serve the most people and jobs. It wouldn’t be possible to both extend SLE to Westerly and add service on the Norwich Branch and Groton spur, due to limitations on the number of trains that can run each hour on the Thames River Bridge.
The expansion of Shore Line East between New London and Westerly and the addition of commuter rail between New London and Norwich “could be possible given further analysis,” but could face “significant challenges,” the report stated.
“The infrastructure improvements needed to run hourly commuter rail service along these lines include upgrades to track, structures, grade crossings, and the construction of new stations/reconstruction of existing stations to be compatible with operating equipment and meet ADA requirements,” which could cost $1 billion, the report states.
Still, the study said expanded rail service would mean better access to jobs, businesses and recreation ― leading to an anticipated 286,000 more rail trips each year if service was added in 2035.
The DOT says expanding bus service, including increasing the frequency of buses between Norwich and New London, adding a new seasonal route to Mystic, and a connection between the submarine base and Electric Boat, and expanding service hours, could help “address travel demand within the region independent of passenger rail service.”
The study is billed as a “first step,” with any future improvements needing funding, permitting and more planning.
Current changes
At the same time the study is being released, the existing Shore Line East service is expected to be curtailed this fall, due to budget cuts to the service. The study said “service reductions are anticipated in fall 2023 and they could impact the current frequency of service to this area.”
The state cited at the time of the decision last spring that ridership on the commuter rail service had fallen to 30% of its levels before the COVID-19 pandemic, though state legislators advocating for rail said cutting service would only accelerate this trend, while adding more trains would encourage ridership.
In addition, temporary schedule changes went into effect Tuesday due to an Amtrak project to improve the tracks.
A group of state legislators who represents the shoreline issued a news release to request that Amtrak offer other options to commuters, as weekday trains between New Haven and New London will be cut from 22 to 14 daily trains, and weekend trains between New Haven and New London will be cut from 16 to 14 daily trains, with more trains stopping in Madison.
“I'm calling on Amtrak – at a bare minimum – to restore peak service and complete this work during off-peak hours or provide a dedicated bus service during on-peak hours,” state Sen. Christine Cohen, D-Guilford, said in a statement.
State Rep. Devin Carney, R-Old Lyme, said in a statement that: “These changes were not only a surprise to Shore Line East riders, but this disruption has caused distress to commuters, students, and others who rely on this service for their livelihoods.”
Norwich, New London and Groton could benefit most
The feasibility report outlines that transit and rail improvements could cut carbon dioxide emissions and spur jobs in the region, which has fewer professional jobs and lower pay than Bridgeport, New Haven, Stamford and Hartford, communities with better transit.
The study found the region’s more densely populated communities of Norwich, New London and Groton, which have disadvantaged areas and which, along with Montville, are considered “distressed municipalities,” could benefit the most from enhanced transportation and transit-oriented development.
The study details proposals and cost estimates for expanding bus service run by Southeast Area Transit District and the rail expansions.
Public input sought
Study Manager Elise Greenberg said in a statement that public comments are “essential to this preliminary study.”
“The Connecticut Public Transportation Council continues to believe that the expansion of rail is a critical component of making our state the best it can be in the area of transportation, the environment, tourism and economic development,” Jim Gildea, the chairman of the independent advisory group that advocates for all forms of public transportation in the state, said by phone Wednesday.
Gildea said transportation in the region, which is home to employers such as Pfizer and Electric Boat with their increasing workforce, is a critical component of connecting employers to employees. He said the study shows that expansion is feasible, realistic and possible and “we just need to find a way to secure the funding necessary to make it work.”
People who wish to comment on the study can send the comments to DOTplanning@ct.gov or (860) 594-2855 by Oct. 20.
The DOT will hold the following public meetings on the feasibility study:
· 6 p.m. Sept. 19 at the Thrive 55+ Active Living Center, 102 Newtown Road, Groton. A meeting recording will be posted later on the DOT’s YouTube channel.
· 1 p.m. Sept. 20 at Otis Library, 261 Main St., Norwich, and streamed live on YouTube.
· 6 p.m. Sep. 20 via Zoom and livestreamed. People can register at https://portal.ct.gov/eastern-ct-rail.
The DOT also said there will be public hearings this fall on the schedule after the Amtrak construction projects.
U.S. offshore wind slammed by runaway costs
Will Wade and Jennifer A Dlouhy, Bloomberg News
The U.S. offshore wind industry, banking on a big boost from the landmark Inflation Reduction Act, has found itself face-to-face with a major hurdle that’s been right there in the name all along: inflation.
In fact, the law might even be making it worse.
More than 10 gigawatts of offshore wind projects along the U.S. East Coast — the equivalent of roughly 10 nuclear power reactors — are at serious risk as higher costs force developers to re-crunch the numbers for proposals originally modeled years ago, before a runup in interest rates and material costs. Orsted A/S, the Danish wind giant, said this week it’s prepared to walk away from projects unless it gets even more government aid. Other developers are already paying tens of millions in penalties to exit contracts they say no longer make financial sense.
“It’s pretty evident that inflationary pressures have blunted the impact” of the IRA, said Josh Price, a director with Capstone, a Washington-based research group. “It wasn’t a silver bullet.”
Orsted’s warnings are the most concrete example yet of the limits of the IRA, which was hailed as a key driver for America’s nascent offshore wind industry. While the law provides at least $370 billion in grants, tax credits and other incentives for climate and clean energy projects, that’s proving no match for rising inflation and borrowing costs. And by dangling higher incentives for companies sourcing U.S.-made parts, it’s fueling demand before the domestic supply chain catches up, driving prices higher still.
“The irony here is that the Inflation Reduction Act probably has had some part in stoking inflation for some of the green goods that it intends to encourage,” said Kevin Book, managing director at ClearView Energy Partners LLC. The IRA is already spurring construction of new U.S. factories to manufacture critical clean-energy gear, but that’s lagging behind renewable project development, exacerbating the issue in the short term. “It takes a long time to stand up a factory. It takes a long time to replace a foreign-sourced supply chain.”
Offshore wind developers are confronting rising costs for everything from financing for the multi-billion-dollar projects to the towers, turbines and foundations needed to support them. Just two years ago, they were making plans — and inking power purchase agreements — based on a projected cost of $77 per megawatt hour, according to BloombergNEF. Now, it’s $114.
John Podesta, a top Biden climate adviser, stressed these are the expected challenges of building out an all-new industry.
“We think that the economics will work out but obviously the first projects are the most challenging, because anytime you’re trying to build a new industry, you have to build” a supply chain, he said at a Climate Power roundtable in Washington on Thursday, noting that he’d just spoken with Orsted’s North American chief. “We’re still very optimistic that with the support of the Inflation Reduction Act, offshore wind has a very strong future.”
Orsted last week announced a potential $2.3 billion charge on its U.S. portfolio, citing higher costs and supplier delays. Chief Executive Officer Mads Nipper has said he’s pressing the White House for more support — and otherwise might consider walking away. The company began offshore construction in June for the 132-megawatt South Fork project near Long Island, New York, and is planning several other ocean wind farms with almost 5 gigawatts of capacity.
Other companies are already pulling the plug on some deals. Shell Plc and its joint-venture partners agreed last week to pay more than $60 million in penalties to exit a contract for their 800-megawatt SouthCoast Wind project near Massachusetts. Avangrid Inc. in July agreed to pay $49 million to cancel a contract for its 1.2 gigawatt Commonwealth project, also off the coast of Massachusetts. The developers had signed long-term power purchase agreements to supply electricity, but those deals were based on being able to line up financing and suppliers at certain levels. They’re planning to participate in a new round of state auctions next year where they expect to seek new contracts with higher power prices. SSE Plc, which has talked for several years about potentially investing in the U.S., told Bloomberg it’s reconsidering.
“Offshore wind is in trouble, in the U.S. and globally,” Sy Oytan, Avangrid’s chief operating officer for offshore wind, said in July during a tour of the company’s Vineyard Wind project, south of Martha’s Vineyard.
Equinor ASA and BP Plc are facing similar hurdles for their Empire and Beacon projects near Long Island, New York, with 3.3 gigawatts of total capacity. In June, they told the state that “adverse economic impacts have imposed unprecedented and escalating cost increases on the projects.” To remain viable, Equinor and BP asked the state to approve a 54% price increase, according to documents filed last week. The company said it expects the state to issue a response in the fourth quarter and can’t say now what it would do if regulators reject their request.
“Inflation and supply chain constraints have caused unprecedented disruption that developers could not have foreseen,” Lauren Shane, a spokeswoman for Equinor Renewables America, said by email Thursday. “While we have worked to manage these issues, given the unique moment in our global economy, this is an industry-wide issue that cannot be overcome at the project level.”
Offshore wind is uniquely vulnerable in the green-energy sector because it is at such an early stage in the U.S., springing up faster than port infrastructure, installation vessels and domestic supply chains that are still being built. President Joe Biden hopes to get 30 gigawatts of offshore wind generating capacity installed by the end of the decade — up from less than 50 megawatts today. But developers are operating without a blueprint, Capstone’s Price said.
“These are massive, massive projects that are very capex heavy,” he said. “It’s a much earlier stage for this industry and so necessarily it’s more risky, which makes access to capital harder, which is only exacerbated by the high interest-rate environment.”
With assistance from Todd Gillespie.
NPU's $200 million wastewater plant replacement to improve technology and service.
The largest construction project in Norwich's history gets closer to starting, and Norwich Public Utilities customers may pay a higher rate for their sewer service to help fund it.
Before the city council meeting Tuesday, NPU gave a presentation on their Wastewater Treatment Plant replacement. The project, expected to cost $200 million, will largely replace the facility on Hollyhock Island. The current treatment plant was built in 1955, far beyond its intended lifespan, said Craig Wagner, engineer for CDM Smith.
Construction work is expected to start this fall, and will go for five years, Wagner said.
Though the wastewater treatment plant has had multiple upgrades over the years, most recently in 2018, the current condition of the plant is poor, though well maintained. The current plant is also inadequate in multiple categories, including safety, odor control, reliability, and more, Wagner said.
What the project will do
Some of the project goals include improving nitrogen removal to prevent algae blooms and save money on nitrogen credits from the state, incorporate modern technology that’s up to code and not reliant on discontinued parts, and improving resiliency, including when there’s flooding, mechanical or electrical issues, “so when accidents do happen, it doesn’t shut down the whole system,” Wagner said.
Some of the upgrades include an automated UV light system to help with disinfection, and increasing the amount of clarifiers at the plant, Wagner said.
How the project will be funded
Funding for the project will come from Connecticut’s Clean Water Act. $72 million is grant funding, and the rest is from a 2% interest loan. The loan will be repaid over the next 20 years by increasing the sewer rate by 12.1 percent over the next 8 years, starting in November, subject to the Board of Public Utilities Commissioners and Sewer Authority approval, NPU General Manager Chris LaRose said.
The board of commissioners has to review rate increases for services at the Sept. 26 meeting. If approved, the changes will be effective Nov. 1, Communications and Community Outreach Manager Chris Riley said.
Even with rate increases, cost reductions in natural gas and electricity would lead to residential customers paying between $11 and $63 less per month, depending on what services they get, according the NPU Rate Communication 2023 document from August.
Two challenges during the construction process includes creating all new structures on a pile system, and maintaining the function of the current wastewater plant through the process, an overview from NPU states.
Work on the plant will include a formal closure of the Hollyhock Island landfill. Trees and brush will be cleared, and the landfill will be capped to modern standards, Wagner said.
The capped land can be used for solar power uses in the future, LaRose said.
The completed wastewater treatment plant will be able to handle 20 million gallons of wastewater per day, as opposed to 15 million gallons daily currently. While there aren’t any current plans to expand sewer service in existing neighborhoods, the utility plans on expanding services to other towns, including Bozrah and Franklin, LaRose said.
The plans for the wastewater treatment plant have been referred to the Commission on the City Plan for its Sept. 11 meeting, and there will be a public hearing on Sept. 18, before submitting final applications to secure an authorization award from the Connecticut Department of Energy and Environmental Protection to start construction, Wagner said.